MDR: I believe he means the esoteric rulers in both cases. Of what type of initiate is he speaking. For initiates of the first two degrees, simple esoteric rulers would do. For those of the third degree and beyond, esoteric rulers would still apply--at least for the third degree. One could then experiment with phasing in the hierarchical rulers. They probably apply somewhat to the Cardinal Cross, the influence of which begins to be felt after the third degree but is not mounted fully until the fifth.
 
PL: Usually when DK uses the word 'initiate' he is talking about a third degree or more.  When he is talking about the first two initiations he uses the word 'aspirant' and 'disciple'. That is what I thought anyway, correct me if I am wrong.

MR: Here from DINA II,  391-392, is a little quote: "Soul-infused personalities; these are the disciples and the initiates of  the first three initiations, through whom the "souls" work in the carrying out of the Plan."

I think you are correct that, mostly, the term initiates refers to initiates of the third degree. However, here from TEV (171) we read:

"This may be the relatively undeveloped state of consciousness of the savage, the consciousness of the average man or the highly developed consciousness of the initiate up to the third degree, or the still more vibrant awareness of the initiate of still higher grades."

We see that he uses the word "initiate" to indicate the first two initiations as well as the third and later.

I guess my point was that esoteric rulers would apply to initiates of the first, second and third degrees, and perhaps beyond, with the hierarchical rulers being phased-in as appropriate.

The term "aspirant" and "disciple" is often used even *before* the first degree (the birth)

From IHS (192) the followng shows the comparative use of the term "disciple" and "initiate":

"There are certain aphorisms and injunctions which the applicant for initiation needs to study and obey.  There is a great distinction between the terms "aspirant to the Path" and "applicant for initiation."  He who aspires and strives towards discipleship is in no way pledged to the same specific attitude and discipline as is the applicant for initiation, and he can, if he so choose, take as long as he desires in the treading of the Probationary Path.  The man who sees initiation is in a different position, and having once made application has to bring his life under a definite rule, and a strict regime which is only optional to the disciple."

The implication here is that one can be a disicple (and certainly an aspirant) well before one takes even the first degree.

In the matter of whether to use the eso rulers of the Asc. and the exo rulers of the Sun; OR, the eso rulers of the Asc. and the *eso* rulers of the Sun, experimentation would be needed. In my own case I could with profit use Neptune (Asc. Cancer) and Mars (Sun, Aries)--or, it would not be insignificant to use Neptune (Asc. Cancer) and Mercury (Sun, Aries), Neptune and Mercury being found in opposition. I would not necessarily have to be an initiate of the third degree to make the latter of these two possibilities revelatory.

PL: Also he mentions somewhere that the disciple on the fixed cross is subject to the influences of all three crosses - I wonder if that necessarily means that the disciple is subject to the hierarchical rulers per se?

MDR: I don't know the reference, but I would keep the application focused, in general, on the esoteric rulers. In order to pull out the hierarchical rulers, I would make sure that the disicple in question was indeed a third degree or very close.
 

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